The time has come for a schism regarding the issue of women in the church. Those of us who know that women should be accorded full participation in every aspect of church life need to visibly and forcefully separate ourselves from those who do not. Their subjugation of women is anti-Christian, and it should be tolerated no longer.
- If you attend a church that does not let women preach or hold positions of ecclesial authority, you need to leave that church.
- If you work for a ministry that does not affirm women in ecclesial leadership, you need to leave that ministry.
- If you write for a publishing house that also prints books by “complementarians,” you need to take your books to another publishing house.
- If you speak at conferences, you need to withdraw from all events that do not affirm women as speakers, teachers, and leaders.
I for one am glad that liberals are willing to take their ball and go home, wherever home is for that magic bus of Modernism that is constantly running 5 minutes behind schedule and is panicking to catch up. I have no problem with those who are not willing to listen to Jesus giving up the pretense that they care what He says. Take your politically-correct, dying churches and begone.
Tony Jones ignores one inconvenient truth in his rant against the idea that men and women are not perfectly interchangeable: separation of the roles of men and women is not new in Christianity. It’s not trendy. It’s not modern. It’s not even political in any real sense of the word. It’s Christianity: real-life, historic, biblical Christianity, based on a creation narrative and a reality that distinguishes the sexes in real and important ways.
So it’s not time for those who would overthrow historic Christianity to leave Christianity. It’s time for them to leave Christianity alone.
There are three facts we need to deal with in regards to the issue:
- Jesus chose men as the Twelve and used women in different roles.
- The Bible defines certain roles for men and women, both in the church and in marriage.
- The prior facts are offensive to modern political correctness.
It is, of course, the third item that is truly at issue, for that is the one that drives liberals* to reinterpret not only the meaning but the facthood of the first two. That’s fine, we’ve all heard the arguments. Jones is correct that the debate is over. One must either choose modern political correctness** as a guide to the holy, or one must choose the word of God. Make your choice and live by it.
Or die by it. As I wrote a dozen years ago about Liberalism and Decline, (and which Vox Day has expounded in two best-selling books) liberalism is a poison that destroys organizations, rotting them from the inside out. While it provides good-paying, short-term jobs for people who like to preen for the cameras, it ensures that they will never accomplish anything worthwhile. Or at least nothing related to the organization’s original goals.
Still, in the end it really doesn’t matter all that much whether liberal churches or denominations leave Christianity. So long as Christians are free to build new, vibrant, and growing ones, the old ones – who are ironically those who pretend to be the most modern – will wither and die of their own accord.
And modernity will skip down the road to hell without paying their religious fellow travelers any mind whatsoever. Just as it does today.
* Or maybe “equalitarians.” Jones uses the word “complementarians” in there, which I assume he uses to mean “people who understand the Bible,” but I’m not sure. I’ve never met one.
** It should be no surprise that the newly-discovered “gay rights” also makes an appearance. It is amazing to me how quickly its acceptance became a religious requirement once it became a political pet cause of the left.
Mr. (or is it Dr.?) Jones must have a HUUUUUGE problem with St. Paul. Paradoxically, it was St. Paul that was mightily used by the Holy Ghost in order to evangelize the pagan ancestors of Mr. Jones. Mr. Jones is like the proverbial dog returning to it’s vomit for breakfast. Perhaps he would feel better attending a church complete with priestesses and child sacrifice in huge “bonefires” lit to the glory of samhain. Such a pagan church might find some land next door to a planned parenthood clinic in New York soon.
Thou shalt not suffer a woman to preach from 2 Corinthians is enough for me.
Stuff like this always has the stink of “Did God really say…?”
I would also note that Jesus’ rebuke of Peter applies:
Turning around and seeing His disciples, He rebuked Peter and said, “Get behind Me, Satan; for you are not setting your mind on God’s interests, but man’s.”
— Mark 8:33
The whole issue comes down to whether we are going to do the things of God whether our modern politics approves or not, or whether we are going to set our minds on Man’s interests and pretend God approves.
I have a solution. All the men should just say they self-identify as women. Problem solved.
It’s getting harder to find a church/denomination that’s doesn’t allow women to preach. Even the Assemblies of God do now.
It’s not really a surprise:
“The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own desires, and will turn away their ears from the truth and will turn aside to myths.
— 2 Tim 4:3-4
Egalitarianism is a myth, a fable, an untruth that flies in the face of both God’s word and his created design.
Amazing times we’re living in, men. Be true, be brave, be bold.
What is a person supposed to do? I’m at the point where I have just stopped going to church. I know I’m wrong to go that way, but I’m fed up with thin, feel-good Christianity that has no substance.
I’ve been told I should just attend a church and find a way to serve, which sounds like, “put up or shut up,” but I don’t understand serving at an organization that is focused on the wrong things. According to that rationale, I may as well just attend *any* religious service, because what really matters is that I’m there to worship and serve God.
I know I’m being hyperbolic, and I realize any organization will be flawed, but I’m surrounded by these cookie-cutter modern churches that spend more time on the sloppily-written worship music, promo video production value, and putting on a show every Sunday than anything else.
Even better, my wife doesn’t understand what the big deal is. :/ She’s perfectly happy because she feels good after every service, whereas I always leave feeling disappointed and angry. Maybe it’s just me, but it sure is frustrating.
Yes sir, you are on the hyperbolic end, but don’t despair. All have had that thought at sometime or another. Might I direct you to Mr. Southron’s post on this website from days of yore?
Though it is of little consolation across the Internet, always go back to the story of Elijah and the remnant. Modern Christians find themselves in much the same situation. But, what did Elijah do for the long term? Had this dude Elisha follow him around and learn. You too can do that sir, find like-minded folks…they are out there, but you won’t find em by just withdrawing into your own mind.
I made that mistake for years…and faith suffered for it tremendously when you assure yourself you can go on your own and hold faith better than all those others. Not the case.
Any chance you are Reformed? I’d be happy to put some recommendations for you. Any chance you are Orthodox? A couple great men read these comboxes that could give you a few leads. Any chance you are Catholic? There are a number of men here who will be happy to recommend to you. Give us a line and we’d be happy to help.
But most of the problem is in your own mind, clearing your own internal hurdles…and for that…that is a battle you and God get to fight sir.
I was in a similar situation.
I had suffered through some church drama with a woman at the center of it (come to think of it does church drama come any other way?).
I tried probably a dozen different churches and each one was pretty much more of the same, while claiming to be different. I stopped going to at all for more then three years. I wanted nothing to do with any service anywhere.
One day I was having conversation with a Russian coworker of mine and we started talking politics & religion. I told him my particulars and told me “Go to Orthodox Church, we excommunicate people for that”
I sat on that bit of advice for about another year when on a Sunday morning I said why the hell not. At a bare minimum I will have a great story to tell the wife. So I went.
The culture shock was pretty intense, but the sermon was good. There was no rockband playing, no women behind the altar (no women serving period). The priest took time to get to know me and invited me to become a catechumen. That in itself took about a year. For the first time in my 45 years of life I understand the phrase “to love the church”.
welcome home. (We have a couple of writers here who are Orthodox).
Thanks for the replies–I’m a little surprised to have received a response. ? I don’t typically comment on blogs like this, so wasn’t sure.
I’m not really any one of Reformed, Orthodox, or Catholic, but I am most familiar with Reformed theology (I grew up in the Lutheran church, and we currently attend a non-denominational “seeker sensitive” place). I have heard on more than one occasion of someone attending an Orthodox church and feeling like they’d finally found a “real” church, so I’m going to consider that.
My wife was raised baptist and spent a long time in the Nazarene church. I know she would be uncomfortable in a more liturgical setting, because she’s commented before how it seems rigid and as if everyone is just “going through the motions”, but I find a certain beauty and comfort and reverence in it. She’s more comfortable in a mainline setting, but I’m sure she’d accompany me if I said I’d like to visit elsewhere.
HoosierHillbilly hit the issue, though: the problem is in my own mind. I’ll keep trying to work on that.
The Greek church
Well, in fairness, the Greeks are the more “liberal” of the Orthodox in this country.
No offense to your wife but of course she isn’t going to see the problem. The modern church in America is well aware of who it’s primary customers are (women). If you own a honky-tonk bar you’re not going to be too concerned over what the K-Pop crowd is into.
If you are interested I can look through the Orthodox directory and find something close to you?
Here is an interesting article about why Orthodox Men love church.
I hope some of the guest authors will chime in with a better description here, but for the Lutheran leanings, have you looked at a WELS church before? The recommendation has come up before in similar discussions, and they have been vouched for as a starting place. I am out of my league with stating anything beyond that. If you are at least willing to try a more Reformed flavor, and the wife was originally Baptist, the recommendation has come up before to look into the Primitive Baptist side of things. Once more, that is as far as I can tell you, but may serve at least as a compromise point.
As for discussions with the wife concerning church attendance, that is best left to the wiser folks here. Ask politely with a few specific questions and see if an article shows up in the next few weeks. Never hurts to ask.